1-21-08, 11:00 am
Editor's Note: Chris Stevenson reports for the Buffalo Criterion and his op-eds are nationally syndicated. The following is a transcription of our interview with him regarding his articles on racism and the Buffalo Police Department.
PA: Could you talk about the story of Officer Cariol Horn and describe the particular incident that led up to what is happening now with her and the Buffalo Police Department?
CS: The whole big mess started with an incident that took place on November 1, 2006. Cariol Horn was called to assist in the arrest of a suspect who was supposedly giving the police a lot of trouble. This took place in Buffalo in the inner city, but it’s right on the borderline with the suburbs.
When she walked in, this individual, a middle-aged family man named Neal Mack, was already handcuffed. There were three cops there, and they were punching this guy. One cop in particular, Greg Kwiatkowski, was repeatedly punching Mr. Mack in the face, and another cop was saying, “Hang on a second, Greg, I want to finish cuffing this guy” – he was already handcuffed in the front, but he wanted to cuff him in the back as well. That makes you even more defenseless, of course.
At that point, numerous cops had arrived and they struggled to get him downstairs. These officers have also been accused of beating him. Neal Mack has a couple of sons, and the girlfriend of one of the son’s was there too. The police maced and billy-clubbed all of them. It was like a massacre in this man’s own apartment. He lived upstairs in the house.
They wrestled with him and got him downstairs. One officer, Greg Kwiatkowski was still punching on the guy, and when they got him downstairs he put a choke-hold on him. He had his forearm right around his neck.
That’s when Officer Horn decided to intervene. She said, “This guy is turning red. You’re choking him! You’re going to kill him if you don’t stop!” She kept trying until she finally got him to stop. But Kwiatkowski was already in a rage of anger, and he hit her in the face. He retaliated by punching her in the face.
So she tried to fight back. I don’t know if she landed any blows, because they were quickly separated by the other officers. At this point tempers had really flared. There was only one superior officer, a lieutenant, I think, who was on the scene. He told them both of them, Kwiatkowski and Horn, to get back to precinct headquarters. Once they go there, Horn went straight to the chief, who is also a Black female, and reported the incident. The lieutenant admitted he was angry at Officer Horn, because he felt that she had circumvented him.
Greg Kwiatkowski went to the chief and said, “She just hit me for no reason.” Kwiatkowski has the habit of acting like a little angel when he reports to his superior officers after this sort of thing happens, and they are in the habit of taking his word at face value.
This guy has a long record of abuse. I wrote another story about him back in 2000. He was in a bar after coming from a diversity-training meeting and started a fight with a couple of Black males who entered the bar with some white females. There were two Black males and one white male that came in the bar, and he took exception that these guys had white women with them. From what I heard later on, they were work mates. I don’t know if there was any other relationship with them or not, and it doesn’t matter. It’s none of their business, you know. The present incident has now spiraled off in several different directions.
PA: In your article, you describe the physical differences between the Black officer and the white officer.
CS: Kwiatkowski is at least 6 feet 2 – I have heard him described as between 6-2 and 6-4. I have never actually seen Kwiatkowski in person. I missed the days he showed up for the hearings, but I have seen him on TV. He’s a big guy. I’m 6-2 and 240 pounds myself, and he’s definitely in that neighborhood.
PA: And Officer Horn is much smaller?
CS: Officer Horn is no taller than 5-2, so there’s a very glaring difference between them. She gives up at least one foot and 100 pounds to him. So if you can picture somebody that looks like this hitting a woman of her size, somebody of her stature, it’s pretty savage.
PA: This altercation has now spiralled into a disciplinary hearing against Officer Horn?
CS: That’s the really weird part about it. At a public forum I asked one of the Deputy Police Chiefs, “Where’s the disciplinary hearing for Officer Kwiatkowski?,” and he said there wasn’t one. So they’re going at it backwards, and they’re pretty smug about it too. Actually one of our Deputy Chiefs and our Chief of Police are Black. The Police Commissioner in Buffalo, McCarthy Gipson, is also Black. I spoke with Commissioner Gipson in the spring by telephone several times, and once in person with several community activists and another journalist. And he said, “I’m not going to bow to public pressure!” This is not an anomaly with him. I guess in their minds, they are sticking to their guns; they’re not going to give in. Officer Kwiatkowski is still on duty; he has not had to face any disciplinary hearing other than maybe a single mandatory disciplinary hearing, but that’s it. So it is a pretty bizarre situation we have here in Buffalo.
PA: Could you talk about the state of community pressure on the police department to deal with this situation properly, and in general about racism in the Buffalo Police Department?
CS: There has never been effective pressure from the public on the Buffalo Police Department against their racist tactics. There are tons of stories about incidents between Blacks and white police, and this is certainly not the first racially motivated fight between police officers. Black police have had to fight their way up the ladder, in terms of seniority and rank, and even though we now have a Black police commissioner, they are still slow to promote Black officers.
However, the public support for Officer Horn has been very strong. I have covered police incidents in Buffalo for about 9 years. None of them have caught the attention of the public the way this has. I have to credit this to community people and organizations. She also has some very good attorneys in Anthony Pendergrass and Ken Nixon. They came to her aid and are fighting tooth-and-nail against what the Police Department is trying to do to her, including denying her the right to a public hearing. They wanted to give her a private hearing, so they could just let her go and shove it under the carpet. They didn’t allow that to happen. They took it all the way to the State Supreme Court. The Supreme Court said she had the right to a public hearing, and that’s the way it has been done. The Supreme Court told the Buffalo Police Department, “That’s in your charter, by the way, and that’s the way it has to be done.”
It’s amazing to me! The Horn incident, since it started to be covered by the local press, has become an issue that is very split along racial lines. If you look at some of the western New York blogs, you see a lot of remarks made against Horn. I’ve talked to members of the major press, and they say, “You’re on Horn’s side aren’t you?” Like, I’m supposed to be on Kwiatkowski’s side. It’s split along racial lines, and it has split the department.
PA: Finally, what do you think is next for this story? How is it shaping up and how do you think it may end up being resolved?
CS: It could be resolved quickly. Really the key to resolving it lies with the Police Commissioner. He didn’t think it was going to get this far. He didn’t think she would get the kind of support she has gotten. When I first let him know of this in the fall, he was like “Yeah, yeah, you know, you guys are nothing; this isn't going anywhere – you’ll see. But now that it has gotten to this, it has kind of caught people off guard. Still, he is going to be the deciding factor in these disciplinary hearings. Because of that and because of so many things that have come up since then, it could take from a few months to resolve it to a couple of years. It all depends. It’s basically a snowball that is rolling along with its own momentum.
